Arjuna’s teaching moment

Interview with Arjuna

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Good day, Lord Arjuna! I’m so glad I get to speak with you.

My pleasure, really, I have plenty of time.

Oh really, Lord Arjuna? Doesn’t a man of your stature always have a lot on his mind?

No, not anymore. That time has long passed. I’ve learned my lessons, and they’ve been spoken of for centuries. And hey, just drop the ‘lord’. I’m not really into titles.

Wow! That certainly helps close the gap between us, because I must admit I’m pretty nervous about this conversation.

No need to be at all, we are the same Being, equal to God, so…

Well, sounds great, but it’s still a bit hard to believe.

Well, let me tell you what happened to me, and then you’ll understand.

I’d love that, that’s exactly why I came… to find out what actually happened there on that battlefield of Kurukshetra, and how you experienced it. I’ve read the Bhagavad Gita—several times in fact—but the language is quite archaic and hard to read these days.

I can relate, the Dutch translation uses some old-fashioned wording. The Bhagavad Gita, 700 verses spread over eighteen chapters, that’s quite long for today’s attention span. So I’ll tell you in my own words. But before I begin, you have to realize that this battlefield with armies is meant as a metaphor, because it’s about an inner struggle we all must face. It’s about a battle in the mind. I only understood that later myself.

Yes, I had already gathered that. I’m listening!

It really was a horrible situation there, on that battlefield of Kurukshetra. I was completely worn out as a military leader, full of doubt and confusion about what I had to do. I was supposed to defeat another army to maintain my kingdom, but that army was made up of my own family and friends. I’m not a violent man and couldn’t see how to handle the situation. I felt sadness, doubt, and compassion for the potential victims. My hands were trembling, so I had the chariot stopped, put down my bow, and refused to fight.

Yeah… that sounds intense…

Luckily, I had a skilled charioteer—my loyal friend Krishna. But he was also a bit strange, radiating blue light. He started talking to me, which at first only made me more indecisive. He did comfort me, but also told me that I was essentially immortal, indestructible, and eternal, and that my possible death would just be a transition. He said “Arjuna, your body, your persona, is like a coat you wear. But you are not that coat. You are the soul wearing it. And that soul never dies! When your body dies, your soul continues on, as something that never ends.” So he encouraged me to do my duty as a warrior, no matter how the battle would unfold… from a place of courageous detachment.

Did that help at all? I mean… could you do anything with that? Could you move forward?

Well, not right away! It all sounded pretty theoretical to me. Krishna started explaining things I had never heard of, using strange terms. He said it was important to keep your eyes on the bigger picture with every action. He said: “You must do your duty without thinking of yourself. That means you act without expecting anything in return.”Well, I didn’t want anything in return, just to keep my kingdom. He talked about ‘dharma’, the inner path to purity and spiritual growth. On that path, neglecting your duty is not an option. Action is necessary, but I had to do it from the right state of consciousness.

The right consciousness? I would say you were quite conscious at that moment, because you felt sorrow, doubt, and even compassion for the potential victims. Isn’t that conscious?

Yes, that’s what I thought too. But Krishna told me that pure selfless action is something else, and much more powerful, because it comes from True Knowledge and devotion. He said: “When people forget who they truly are, I descend as the personification of Wisdom to restore balance. Not with violence, but by bringing truth, insight, and love. This deep wisdom about acting in total freedom is ancient, and I have shared it for ages with humankind, through a chain of wise teachers. But over time, that knowledge has been forgotten.” I was hearing it again now, because I was ready… not just as a friend, but as someone with an open heart and a sharp mind.Well, that did sound nice, but yeah… I was still staring at a massive army waiting for my move, and I was no closer to a decision.

That reminds me of what Gurdjieff once told me. He said: “Time buries wisdom again and again, turning true teachings into dogma or letting them be forgotten entirely. So we have to be like archaeologists, digging up pure knowledge once more.” Since most people today have forgotten who they really are and are messing everything up, I dare say that our current time could really use such a descent of Krishna…

Oh? Yes… I think so too… Krishna said there are two paths that lead to liberation. Why he brought that up at that moment, I didn’t understand. I only wanted to be free from one thing: my doubt! He said there was a path of detachment through action… and a path of complete non-action, which is different from running away from action. Regardless of which of those two paths you choose,true freedom would come through letting go of wanting, desire, and attachment. He said: “You must create distance… and true distance is internal. If you do your duty without being swept away by it, without being led by your opinions… and if you don’t constantly think ‘what’s in it for me?’, then you become free. Then you remain free, even in the middle of chaos or pressure. Then you are in the world but no longer of the world.”I would be like a fish in water, without getting wet! My fear would dissolve, my desires would stop. I would no longer be looking for something outside myself. I would come home. That’s what He called real peace.

That certainly sounds like an attractive prospect. So I’m curious how Krishna envisioned that… what do you have to do—or stop doing—to realize such freedom?

He said I had to start meditating and learn to fully concentrate. Then inner peace, self-mastery, and insight would come to me naturally. His words sounded like a practical guide to meditation, you know, like in the books you can buy everywhere these days. “A true yogi sees all beings as equal and lives in peace with themselves and the world,” he emphasized. And: “For those who have mastered themselves, the mind is a friend. But for those who haven’t, the mind becomes their greatest enemy.” So I had to conquer my own mind, because our thoughts can be both a liberating tool and a limiting force. Without control over the constant stream of thoughts and emotions, you quickly become confused, angry, or insecure—and sabotage yourself without even realizing it. You stray from your path. Self-mastery, meditation, and insight are the keys to making your mind a companion, a friend. Without that development, I would remain entangled in confusion, fear, stress, and spinning thoughts. Well… that’s exactly where I was at that moment… Beneath my indecision was a whole lot of stress! If I wanted to free myself from inner conflict, I had to surround myself with the right people and learn to act without demanding results. First learn to act rightly, and from there even let go of the idea of ‘I am doing something’. If I practiced meditation, the art of ‘non-doing’, I would start to experience that happiness doesn’t come from the outside, but from within, calm, grounded, and fulfilling.

“Once you’ve felt that, you won’t want anything else,” He said. “But it takes practice. You learn to look at everyone with equal eyes—kind or unkind, rich or poor, friend or enemy.”
Well… So I had to see that army opposite me as ‘equal’? But how could I then go and defeat them ‘in peace with myself and the world’? I didn’t see it at that moment.

That does seem contradictory… how can you attack someone if you see them as ‘equal to yourself’? It kind of reminds me of samurai warriors… I believe they originally had full respect for each other and didn’t necessarily see their opponent as ‘evil’.

Yeah… that would have made me some kind of samurai warrior… Krishna revealed to me that He is the source of everything in the world and explained that True Knowledge means learning to see the divine in all things. But was my friend and charioteer really the Source of everything in the world? Could that really be true? That question snapped me out of my lethargy. I took a good look at Him and once again noticed that strange and beautiful glowing blue light surrounding Him. That’s when I realized this Krishna was more than just my clever charioteer—much more than that! He was, damn it, steering my spirit, it seemed, because He wasn’t looking at that other army, but at me… and into me! I tried not only to understand Him better with my head, but also to feel Him with my heart. He said: “There are three kinds of people who turn to Me: those who want something from Me, those who are curious, and those who truly want to learn. I know that you belong to the latter.” His all-encompassing divine energy, which brings all worldly and spiritual things into existence and nourishes them, would be difficult to transcend… but whoever fully surrenders to it, can transcend it. He looked at me with an all-knowing gaze… pffff. It made me feel warm inside. I suddenly felt such great reverence for Him! So, dear sir, if you’re going to write this down, please use capital letters for ‘He’ and ‘Him’.

I will do that.

Thank you. Anyway… many of the words He used were new to me. I also began to have more and more questions. Krishna said that my soul, the Self, is immortal… eternal… and that at the moment of my death, the consciousness I had developed would determine where my soul would go. He called that karma. But what did He mean by ‘the Self’? And what is ‘eternal’? What exactly is karma? What is dying? And what happens after death? Krishna then went much further in a spiritual direction, but from that moment on, I didn’t resist anymore and surrendered to it. I thought, remembering His words, we’ll see what it brings.
He said: “Now listen carefully! The Eternal is That which does not change; it is the Spirit behind everything. And the Self? That is who you are in your deepest core. So not your body, not your thoughts or emotions, but the quiet, conscious ‘I’ that is always present, neutral, in any situation: the Self.
‘Karma’ means that whatever you do, consciously or unconsciously, always has consequences. How you live, what you think, what you set your heart on—these all determine what happens to you when you die.”Most people, after death, simply return to Earth to continue their development. But others will never be reborn and will be freed from the cycle of rebirth. That’s not something you can see with ordinary eyes, but I would feel and experience it if my heart were ready. So, if you now ask me what happens at death? Well, at the moment we die, if during our life we have sincerely and lovingly turned our heart toward Krishna—you might as well say God now—then our soul will return to Him forever. Very liberating.

But… what did He say there? That you then return to Krishna, your charioteer? Isn’t that strange? What did He mean by that?

Well yes, wasn’t Krishna that ‘personification of Wisdom’ who descended to restore balance? So no longer just my charioteer. Krishna wanted to share a ‘royal secret’ with me. He asked me to set aside my own thoughts for a moment. He told me that He represented the Absolute Source of everything. That He was its embodiment at that very moment! That sent a huge shiver down my spine… Goodness… I was having a conversation with God! I glanced around nervously and saw that the entire Field of Kurukshetra seemed to be holding its breath…

Krishna said: “Arjuna, I tell you something very important. This is not ordinary knowledge. This is the highest insight and at the same time a mystery. You are open to it, so I will share it with you. If you understand this and live by it, you will truly be happy. This knowledge is simple and powerful, and the beauty is: once you are faithful to it, you will never be afraid again.”
I would feel deep inside that it was true and so, according to Him, I had to really pay close attention now:
“I permeate this entire world. Everything exists within Me, but I am not bound by the things you see—just as space fills everything but is attached to nothing. People usually do not see Me. They think I am far away or have nothing to do with their lives. But in reality, it is I who give them breath, who feed their thoughts, who make their hearts beat. I am the Light in the fire, the rhythm in nature. And yet, I am free from everything. I am there, but completely invisible. In whatever form you seek Me—if you are sincere—you will always find Me.”

He also said He never abandons anyone… Whether you are rich or poor, learned or simple… He is there for everyone who turns to Him with love and trust, just as He was there for me now. Even if I made great mistakes, He would not reject me. Everyone who embraces Him in their heart and tries their best will grow and become whole… Then He said these unforgettable words:
“I am the Origin, the Middle, and the End of everything. Everyone comes forth from Me, and everyone returns to Me.”Even those who live without knowledge and who do not know Me—or don’t want to—are eventually guided by Me to come to know Me.”
He then advised me to leave my thoughts parked for a while and open my heart further so that I could keep following Him in full trust.

Wow… those were some lofty words. If I met someone who claimed all that about himself… I don’t know if I’d take him seriously. There are plenty of strange people out there who think they’re God and lead entire nations astray…

I get that! But what I saw before me wasn’t human. Or should I say, ‘What I saw’? Divinity radiated from Krishna! You cannot even imagine it right now! And it would get even more intense, I tell you. He showed me that the divine is present in everything and surpasses everything. He explained all His divine manifestations in the world: the power of the sun, the moon, wisdom, and the breath of life that sustains everything. But also the power within people. Not at that moment, but later, it reminded me that Jesus said similar things. Jesus told Pilate that as a ruler he had no power at all except that which God gave him… which, of course, Pilate didn’t take well… it made him grumpy. But anyway, that’s another story.

Yes, that is another story indeed, though with many similarities. Maybe I should interview Jesus too sometime.I certainly would, if you ever get the chance.
To return to that situation there in Kukushetra, Krishna would then show me His Universal, all-encompassing form: a beautiful but overwhelming vision of the divine that includes everything: Creation, Destruction, and Eternity. He told in which forms He is visible in the world: “You now know that I am the Source of everything , of the entire universe, of every soul, of every thought or feeling. And so I will show you how I express myself in the world.”
He then named many examples, I don’t remember them all, but among others ‘the spirit in all living beings,’ ‘the beginning, middle, and end of all things,’ ‘the wisdom of the wise, the strength of heroes, the silence of the mountains, the speed of the wind, the purity of water, the light of the sun and moon, the melody in music’… I’m sure I’m forgetting many more. To be honest, I was completely overwhelmed by this vision! He also said: “Every wonder, every beauty and every power you see… that is Me.”

And you believed all that? Couldn’t you, like a kind of doubting Thomas, ask for a little proof?

Well, that was exactly what came to mind, even though I had never heard of Thomas before. I gathered my courage and said to Krishna: “You have told me a lot about who You are and how everything comes from You. But now I want to see Your real form, not just in words, but with my own eyes. Show me what You look like when You fully reveal who You are. Your divine, cosmic form.” And then He answered that I was blessed because I asked that, but ordinary eyes cannot see His true form. That form is too big, too powerful, too brilliant, too frightening. Therefore, He gave me a special divine ‘vision’ for a moment, so I could see Him as He really is: the entire universe in one body.
And then I saw Him… Almighty…! I still shiver thinking about it!
I saw a kind of body made up of áll worlds at once. Myriad faces, arms, eyes, colors, lights, and shapes. Sun and moon as eyes. Flames coming from the mouth. The sky completely filled with this one gigantic figure. I saw all gods, sages, animals, people, stars… all within Krishna’s one form. I saw time, life, death, creation, destruction… all at once! It was overwhelming with light and shadow, with love and power… I saw Him as the force behind everything that exists, and as the destroyer of all that must end… terrible and beautiful at the same time. Mighty warriors disappeared into His mouth as if time swallowed them. As if Krishna himself was time that devours everything.

Pfff… wow… that must have been intense, I guess!

Yes, it was. Nowadays they make beautiful fantasy movies, full of impressive animations, but what I had seen and felt back then… that went far beyond anything they could ever put in a film!

Yes, that was so… but haven’t you heard about the last film festival in Cannes? It was completely turned upside down! Films are now made with A.I., directly from language, memories, fantasies, and even dreams. No film crew involved anymore! Synthetically realized and frighteningly realistic… So A.I. can now easily shape your Krishna vision, you just have to speak it out loud.

Is that so? Well… A.I., like all created things, is also one of Krishna’s manifestations. I hope filmmakers will pay attention to my experience, especially that astonishingly impressive vision, to make the lesson I received known to a large Western audience.
During the vision I heard His voice in my head: “Yes, Arjuna, I am Time. I bring an end to everything that has arisen. The battle to come is inevitable. Even if you did nothing, it would happen. The warriors standing against you have already fallen in My time. And you, Arjuna, have the chance to consciously take your place in this great plan. Stand up! Fight not out of hatred, but from truth. ‘Satyagraha’! Do your duty without ego or fear.”
And then, poof… Krishna was again his friendly human form. I could do nothing but bow deeply before my charioteer and asked forgiveness if I had ever acted carelessly or disrespectfully toward Him. Deeply impressed I felt small compared to all that infinity. My pride was crushed, but my doubts also disappeared. I saw it now: God is Everything…

But just when I thought this vision was about it, nope… Krishna kept speaking to me. So I asked Him what I should do. Should I worship Him as a kind of personified God, whom I can feel, see, and love? Or as an Impersonal Absoluteness, an invisible, formless Source of the universe? He answered me that loving devotion to Him is best and simplest. Well, I interpreted that as meaning that He, this blue-glowing Krishna, would be the personification for my limited human mind of that impersonal Absolute Source for which no words or images exist. Just like Jesus and Mary are for many people now. Because nothing is as difficult as worshipping something you cannot imagine at all. So I could work with that. That loving devotion I could then practice by doing my work ego-less, staying calm in success and failure, keep trusting even when it gets hard, be kind and generous to everyone, and not envy anyone… so especially not be jealous! Help others without wanting anything in return, and be forgiving. I had to learn to see the divinity in áll beings… in friend and enemy. Well, that last part was a bit of a challenge there with all those hostile people in front of me…

You’re of course talking about ‘becoming a wise person,’ like the great ones on earth, who have proven themselves powerfully and nonviolently throughout history. But yes… how do you become that: wise? That’s what I keep asking myself too. After all, we are humans with all kinds of human traits and temperaments that flare up, often at moments when we least want them. How do we keep that in check? How do we become our own charioteer in this?

Well, Krishna was pretty clear about that. I had to learn to know the difference between my temporary manifestation as a person on the one hand, and my eternal Self on the other. He gave those strange names. One He called ‘the Field’ – that is everything you can see and experience in yourself: your body, feelings, thoughts, desires, memories, mindsets. And the other He called ‘the Knower of the Field’ – that is the consciousness in us that perceives all this. A silent Observer who notices everything but is not itself all of that. My person and body are therefore temporary carriers of my soul, and my soul is the knower who controls my body and mind – or should do so. Wisdom is thus knowing the difference between my temporary human manifestation, with all its physical and emo-mental conditions… and the eternal Self, which is completely neutral and never changes. Then I knew: there is something deeper in me that does not change, even if storms rage around me. I will be able to walk through downpours without getting wet. I now understood the difference between my person and Consciousness, between the temporary self and the eternal Self. Realizing this leads to total inner freedom. And if you call everything you can see and experience ‘the Field’… well, then I suddenly understood the connection with the Field of Kukushetra. I was right in the middle of a metaphor!

Yes, that may be… good observation! But metaphor or not… didn’t your warriors, and those of the other army, start moving meanwhile? Didn’t they get impatient while you were talking for so long?

No, that was quite remarkable. At first, yes, but now it seemed as if everyone had fallen silent, waiting for something big to happen. You could hear a pin drop. People seemed to realize that something important was unfolding and watched in awe as I spoke with this strange blue-glowing figure, my charioteer. Perhaps they were ‘frozen’ by the sight of their own destruction… But this could take a while, I realized, because Krishna began by describing three fundamental qualities, Triguna. I thought: please don’t make it too complicated for me, it’s already so much! Still, He went on explaining that there are three universal qualities that always, everywhere, and on everything exert influence. So I had to learn even more difficult words…

The first was sattva, which we recognize in our mind as a state of clear, quiet attention. Then He mentioned rajas, a state of passionate movement. And thirdly, tamas, a state of ignorance, powerlessness, and decay. He said that these three qualities, depending on their composition, determine everyone’s character and also influence everyone’s actions. True liberation means transcending these three qualities. And I must say, I couldn’t quite imagine that yet. Because I was clearly in a state of tamas at first, my mind dulled by confusion, unsure of what to do. But I also noticed that a certain rajas fire had started to blaze within me. A combative energy ignited by all of Krishna’s wise ‘pep talk’. I began to feel the courage to actually face the battle. But I also understood that I would first have to become completely calm and clear, balanced in sattva, so I would use my fighting spirit wisely, not like a madman.

So you experienced a psychological shift, from what I hear. You developed a completely new mindset, it seems. I imagine it must be quite difficult to hold on to that new way of being and not fall back into your old state. Did Krishna perhaps suggest how you could maintain it, so you wouldn’t regress halfway through the battle?

Definitely. Krishna compared the world to a huge tree whose roots point upward: the true Self stands above the material world, He emphasized. If I could come to understand that, I would be freed from all the illusions of the world. That tree, with its roots above and branches growing down toward the earth, symbolizes life as we know it. The roots above are connected to the Eternal, the origin of all, and from there the entire earthly world grows. The branches of that tree, with their countless sensory buds, represent the directions in which people evolve: their choices, their desires, their life paths. All transient and driven by love for worldly things. From that arise opposing experiences like joy and pain. If you let yourself get carried away by that and lose sight of what is eternal, you risk being swallowed by it. That tree has a very strong pull, because it seems real. Krishna said “But it is the tree of illusion, for people become entangled in its branches— in their desires, their pride, their worries, and their striving. They think *that* is their home.”Well, I had to think about that for a moment, I told Him.
“No time for thinking,” Krishna said, “To find Truth, you must know the difference between ‘getting caught in what you feel you must do’ and ‘wholeheartedly committing out of love’… the difference between attachment and engagement. You must learn to recognize the tree’s root, rise up toward it, and cut down the tree of attachment and illusion with the sword of your insight!”

Are you saying that everything I experience, including this conversation, is an illusion? That everything I value and stand for isn’t real?

Well my boy… that’s something you’ll have to find out for yourself! And start by discovering whether you are pure in heart, because Krishna told me that there are two natures in every human being: a divine and a demonic one. People with divine qualities bring happiness. They seek truth, are gentle, kind, humble, and keep a watchful eye on their thoughts and feelings. But those with dark qualities always lead themselves and the world toward suffering and ruin. They are swept away by pain, anger, or pride, often stubborn or mean… even full of hatred. They want to control others. They are selfish, lie a lot, and have no respect for anything good or sacred. They believe life is mere coincidence… that everything is about power and possession. They live from desire and fear, and seek happiness outside themselves. They are never truly satisfied.Well, it was pretty clear that I was facing armies made up of that second type. And even now, so many years later, the world still seems completely dominated by that kind of people. People who are cut off from God… or from Krishna, to be more precise in this case.

I suppose Krishna didn’t mean you should become a ‘virtue-signaler’. Because I see so many so-called ‘virtuous people’ nowadays who impose rules on others and, whether they realize it or not, saddle the world with a lot of misery.

No, Krishna didn’t mean pseudo-virtuous persons. They pretend to be good and humble. He meant people with a pure spirit. Our world has indeed produced many people who were like that. You can recognize the difference by the kind of belief people hold, which varies according to their nature. People can hold three kinds of faith: pure faith, which leads to good, selfless deeds; passionate faith, which leads to craving, to needing and wanting, which may seem virtuous but isn’t; and ignorant faith, which leads to confusion, chaos, and destruction, because people blindly follow dogmas, which can turn violent. People with a pure spirit, full of sattva, believe with love and devotion, without asking for anything in return. They perform their acts and rituals calmly, without ulterior motives. But people with lots of desire or ambition, full of rajas, act to impress others or gain power. And people in confusion or fear, driven by tamas, follow strange or harmful practices that hurt others or themselves and lead nowhere.

Yes, I can see that clearly! In your description, I see someone like Gandhi as the first type, one of those fanatical American radio preachers as the second, and someone like Silas, in Dan Brown’s *The Da Vinci Code*, who whipped himself, as the third.

Yes, you see that correctly, those are good examples.
Krishna then summarized everything for me and said that it is of great importance to act according to one’s duty, without attachment, and with surrender to the Supreme. This leads to ultimate freedom and peace. He encouraged me to follow my path fearlessly. And since my purpose was the preservation of my kingdom, I would have to fully commit to it based on these principles, fearlessly, without holding back. I would have to face the battle with a clear mind and a warm heart, and fearlessly do what I was truly meant to do, because that was my ‘purpose’ in this life, my life’s mission, however difficult that was. I would have to completely let go of any attachment to outcomes, no longer dependent on the results of my struggle.
Well… that’s when I went in with full devotion and gave it my all!

Wow… Impressive! Thank you so much!… A lot has become clear to me.

You’re welcome! And may you too learn from the lessons I was given back then, for everything that was said in those days is surely still a mirror for you and for all people on Earth today.

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© Michiel Koperdraat