Now, I have rewritten this allegory in the form of an interview with Gurdjieff, much more detailed than Gurdjieff’s version and certainly more detailed than can be read in the Katha Upanishad. Depth and many nuances have been added. As a result, this ‘interview’ as a metaphor provides as complete a picture as possible of the state of our human mind.<\/span><\/h5>\n
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![\"Georgi](\"https:\/\/www.zelfkennis.nu\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/Gurjieff-portret-kl.jpg\" "\\"Georgi")
<\/a>Interview with Georgi Ivanovitsj Gurdjieff<\/span><\/h2>\n.<\/span><\/p>\nDear Mr. Gurdjieff, I have some questions about something I heard.<\/em><\/p>\nJust call me Georgi, my friend.<\/span><\/p>\nOh, thank you!
<\/em> I heard that you compare man to a carriage pulled by horses. Can you explain this concept to me?<\/em><\/p>\nCertainly, I\u2019d love to. But know that this allegory I\u2019ve developed was originally written simply in a very old scripture: the\u00a0Katha Upanishad<\/em>. In it, humans are already represented as a carriage drawn by horses, guided by a charioteer. But who still knows or reads this? Time continually buries wisdom, so even the best teachings become dogmas or are assimilated into religion. A true teacher must essentially be an archaeologist, rediscovering and passing on pure teachings.<\/span><\/p>\nIs the carriage allegory one of these pure teachings?<\/em><\/p>\nIndeed it does, and it is powerful because of the depth within its simple image. I often travelled by carriage\u2014to various places with interesting and wise people. These were often long rides during which this metaphor would come back to me, <\/span>as an eye-opener.<\/span> During those journeys, I had plenty of <\/span>time<\/span> to reflect on it and develop it further.<\/span><\/p>\nHow did you refine it?<\/em><\/p>\nWell, I can compare my own body to a carriage. Just as a carriage allows me to move and encounter all sorts of things, my body allows me to move through life. My body is a vehicle\u2014the vehicle of my spirit and soul. It enables me to travel through my existence.<\/span><\/p>\nAnd that\u2019s all?<\/em><\/p>\nOh no! That\u2019s just the beginning. The carriage is, of course, pulled by horses. And horses, as you know, are sensitive creatures, representing feelings, emotions, desires, and compulsive tendencies. Without them, the carriage would not move. Originally there were five, symbolizing the five senses. But they can also be two, representing duality and our tendency to chase after our senses, sometimes even in different directions. Horses are easily startled and distracted and then they can start doing strange things. Because they are connected to the carriage by the drawbars, the carriage is therefore under their influence.<\/span><\/p>\nWell, isn\u2019t there someone holding the reins?<\/em><\/p>\nIndeed! The charioteer. He keeps the horses calm and guides them along the best path forward\u2014the carriage track. You see, in the old days there were no paved roads, only ruts made by wheels, tracks that provided a somewhat comfortable ride. Off the tracks it was rough and bumpy. The charioteer represents our reason, our intellect, and our faculty of discernment. He guides the horses\u2014our feelings, desires, and drives\u2014along this track. The reins stand for the insights and tactics of our functional thinking that make it possible to steer the horses.<\/span><\/p>\nAlright, that seems clear. Is there more to say? For instance, who sits inside that carriage?<\/em><\/p>\nA good question! Who sits in the carriage? It is someone who is being driven and should instruct the coachman. Let\u2019s call him the Resident<\/em>. In fact, this Resident does nothing. He is an observer, a witness. He watches over the entire carriage system, the ride, and the surroundings. The Resident is the Observer. But because he is the Resident, the charioteer must carry out his orders\u2014guiding the horses properly and ensuring that the carriage moves smoothly toward its destination.<\/span><\/p>\nWell, that seems like a clear metaphor. <\/em>But what good is it to us?<\/em><\/p>\nLet me tell you. <\/span>As I\u2019ve described it to you now\u2014as a carriage smoothly moving toward its destination\u2014that\u2019s not how it is in practice! The state of man is pitiful!<\/span><\/p>\nWhat???<\/em><\/p>\nLook, we hardly maintain the carriage properly. We don\u2019t oil the wheels in time, the frame is barely maintained, and we polish only the outside. Many parts rust or wear out, and we mistreat the carriage. Sometimes it\u2019s even on the verge of collapsing\u2026<\/span> But there\u2019s more\u2026 The horses can go in almost any direction without guidance. They\u2019re stubborn, restless, or stressed\u2014and often rebellious. As a result, the carriage constantly veers off the track, making the already rickety thing endure rough terrain and heavy strain.<\/span><\/p>\nBut there\u2019s still a charioteer, isn\u2019t there?<\/em><\/p>\nCertainly, but he\u2019s often asleep. Or he\u2019s busy with other things instead of his task. Nowadays he\u2019d be fiddling with his smartphone all day, paying no attention to his horses at all. This charioteer intervenes far too little. He should, through proper knowledge, calm the horses and guide them back to the track. But being stubborn, he lets things run wild\u2014or even drives the horses harder, under the illusion that he\u2019s \u2018doing well,\u2019 while in truth he lacks any real knowledge of how to drive.<\/span><\/p>\nThen how can the coachman acquire true knowledge?<\/em><\/p>\nIdeally, by following the instructions of the Resident. For the Resident knows where<\/em> to go and how<\/em> to get there. Without following this true knowledge, the whole carriage system becomes a kind of unguided projectile. That makes it very likely that all sorts of difficulties and malfunctions will occur. The Resident can keep the charioteer on the track through his guidance\u2014but only if this coachman listens!<\/span><\/p>\nWhat does the carriage track represent in this allegory? I don\u2019t quite get that\u2026<\/em><\/p>\nThe carriage track stands for the Now\u2014the only relevant moment. Now is the eternal moment in which everything happens and in which it can always be clear what we must do or not do. To go off the track means to lose awareness of the Now. We then enter the wilderness of an imagined non-Now\u2014of a faded past or an imaginary future\u2014where nothing can happen. Everything happens only in the Now. And imagination is usually a poor advisor.<\/span><\/p>\nHow do we end up in that non-Now?<\/em><\/p>\nWell, because the horses become restless due to something that approaches from outside\u2014something that startles or hurts them. Then they bolt and leave the track. But it can also happen through attraction\u2014through their desires\u2014driving them to seek satisfaction again and again, which can lead to addiction. <\/span><\/p>\nAnd the coachman?<\/em><\/p>\nHe does nothing\u2026 or too little. He should be watchful and feel responsible for the horses. But he\u2019s asleep\u2026 inattentive, and stubbornly refuses to listen to the Resident. The horses therefore receive no proper attention. For years they\u2019ve also been given the wrong \u2018food,\u2019 leaving them in poor condition, impulsive, or driven by craving\u2014<\/span>which<\/span> harms them as well. Naturally, the carriage also suffers, making it hard to reach its destination.<\/span><\/p>\nMy goodness\u2026 The way you describe it, man as this whole system is in bad shape. You\u2019re basically saying the entire human system malfunctions.<\/em><\/p>\nYou\u2019ve seen it well! <\/span>But this dysfunction\u2014this imbalance from which even illness can arise\u2014is fairly simple to repair. Yet one condition must be met first: our whole system must come to rest, because what is always lacking is Silence.<\/span><\/p>\nOh yes? How should we go about that?<\/em><\/p>\nThe charioteer must start listening to the Resident. He must listen to true knowledge\u2014not stubbornly follow his own little world of ideas and merely \u2018do something.\u2019 For in that stubbornness, everything on his path happens to<\/em> him instead of him calmly seeing it coming and acting accordingly.<\/span><\/p>\n
![\"Georgi](\"https:\/\/www.zelfkennis.nu\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/Gurjieff-portret.jpg\" "\\"Georgi")
<\/a>Dear Mr. Gurdjieff, I have some questions about something I heard.<\/em><\/p>\n Just call me Georgi, my friend.<\/span><\/p>\n Oh, thank you! Certainly, I\u2019d love to. But know that this allegory I\u2019ve developed was originally written simply in a very old scripture: the\u00a0Katha Upanishad<\/em>. In it, humans are already represented as a carriage drawn by horses, guided by a charioteer. But who still knows or reads this? Time continually buries wisdom, so even the best teachings become dogmas or are assimilated into religion. A true teacher must essentially be an archaeologist, rediscovering and passing on pure teachings.<\/span><\/p>\n Is the carriage allegory one of these pure teachings?<\/em><\/p>\n Indeed it does, and it is powerful because of the depth within its simple image. I often travelled by carriage\u2014to various places with interesting and wise people. These were often long rides during which this metaphor would come back to me, <\/span>as an eye-opener.<\/span> During those journeys, I had plenty of <\/span>time<\/span> to reflect on it and develop it further.<\/span><\/p>\n How did you refine it?<\/em><\/p>\n Well, I can compare my own body to a carriage. Just as a carriage allows me to move and encounter all sorts of things, my body allows me to move through life. My body is a vehicle\u2014the vehicle of my spirit and soul. It enables me to travel through my existence.<\/span><\/p>\n And that\u2019s all?<\/em><\/p>\n Oh no! That\u2019s just the beginning. The carriage is, of course, pulled by horses. And horses, as you know, are sensitive creatures, representing feelings, emotions, desires, and compulsive tendencies. Without them, the carriage would not move. Originally there were five, symbolizing the five senses. But they can also be two, representing duality and our tendency to chase after our senses, sometimes even in different directions. Horses are easily startled and distracted and then they can start doing strange things. Because they are connected to the carriage by the drawbars, the carriage is therefore under their influence.<\/span><\/p>\n Well, isn\u2019t there someone holding the reins?<\/em><\/p>\n Indeed! The charioteer. He keeps the horses calm and guides them along the best path forward\u2014the carriage track. You see, in the old days there were no paved roads, only ruts made by wheels, tracks that provided a somewhat comfortable ride. Off the tracks it was rough and bumpy. The charioteer represents our reason, our intellect, and our faculty of discernment. He guides the horses\u2014our feelings, desires, and drives\u2014along this track. The reins stand for the insights and tactics of our functional thinking that make it possible to steer the horses.<\/span><\/p>\n Alright, that seems clear. Is there more to say? For instance, who sits inside that carriage?<\/em><\/p>\n A good question! Who sits in the carriage? It is someone who is being driven and should instruct the coachman. Let\u2019s call him the Resident<\/em>. In fact, this Resident does nothing. He is an observer, a witness. He watches over the entire carriage system, the ride, and the surroundings. The Resident is the Observer. But because he is the Resident, the charioteer must carry out his orders\u2014guiding the horses properly and ensuring that the carriage moves smoothly toward its destination.<\/span><\/p>\n Well, that seems like a clear metaphor. <\/em>But what good is it to us?<\/em><\/p>\n Let me tell you. <\/span>As I\u2019ve described it to you now\u2014as a carriage smoothly moving toward its destination\u2014that\u2019s not how it is in practice! The state of man is pitiful!<\/span><\/p>\n What???<\/em><\/p>\n Look, we hardly maintain the carriage properly. We don\u2019t oil the wheels in time, the frame is barely maintained, and we polish only the outside. Many parts rust or wear out, and we mistreat the carriage. Sometimes it\u2019s even on the verge of collapsing\u2026<\/span> But there\u2019s more\u2026 The horses can go in almost any direction without guidance. They\u2019re stubborn, restless, or stressed\u2014and often rebellious. As a result, the carriage constantly veers off the track, making the already rickety thing endure rough terrain and heavy strain.<\/span><\/p>\n But there\u2019s still a charioteer, isn\u2019t there?<\/em><\/p>\n Certainly, but he\u2019s often asleep. Or he\u2019s busy with other things instead of his task. Nowadays he\u2019d be fiddling with his smartphone all day, paying no attention to his horses at all. This charioteer intervenes far too little. He should, through proper knowledge, calm the horses and guide them back to the track. But being stubborn, he lets things run wild\u2014or even drives the horses harder, under the illusion that he\u2019s \u2018doing well,\u2019 while in truth he lacks any real knowledge of how to drive.<\/span><\/p>\n Then how can the coachman acquire true knowledge?<\/em><\/p>\n Ideally, by following the instructions of the Resident. For the Resident knows where<\/em> to go and how<\/em> to get there. Without following this true knowledge, the whole carriage system becomes a kind of unguided projectile. That makes it very likely that all sorts of difficulties and malfunctions will occur. The Resident can keep the charioteer on the track through his guidance\u2014but only if this coachman listens!<\/span><\/p>\n What does the carriage track represent in this allegory? I don\u2019t quite get that\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n The carriage track stands for the Now\u2014the only relevant moment. Now is the eternal moment in which everything happens and in which it can always be clear what we must do or not do. To go off the track means to lose awareness of the Now. We then enter the wilderness of an imagined non-Now\u2014of a faded past or an imaginary future\u2014where nothing can happen. Everything happens only in the Now. And imagination is usually a poor advisor.<\/span><\/p>\n How do we end up in that non-Now?<\/em><\/p>\n Well, because the horses become restless due to something that approaches from outside\u2014something that startles or hurts them. Then they bolt and leave the track. But it can also happen through attraction\u2014through their desires\u2014driving them to seek satisfaction again and again, which can lead to addiction. <\/span><\/p>\n And the coachman?<\/em><\/p>\n He does nothing\u2026 or too little. He should be watchful and feel responsible for the horses. But he\u2019s asleep\u2026 inattentive, and stubbornly refuses to listen to the Resident. The horses therefore receive no proper attention. For years they\u2019ve also been given the wrong \u2018food,\u2019 leaving them in poor condition, impulsive, or driven by craving\u2014<\/span>which<\/span> harms them as well. Naturally, the carriage also suffers, making it hard to reach its destination.<\/span><\/p>\n My goodness\u2026 The way you describe it, man as this whole system is in bad shape. You\u2019re basically saying the entire human system malfunctions.<\/em><\/p>\n You\u2019ve seen it well! <\/span>But this dysfunction\u2014this imbalance from which even illness can arise\u2014is fairly simple to repair. Yet one condition must be met first: our whole system must come to rest, because what is always lacking is Silence.<\/span><\/p>\n Oh yes? How should we go about that?<\/em><\/p>\n The charioteer must start listening to the Resident. He must listen to true knowledge\u2014not stubbornly follow his own little world of ideas and merely \u2018do something.\u2019 For in that stubbornness, everything on his path happens to<\/em> him instead of him calmly seeing it coming and acting accordingly.<\/span><\/p>\n
<\/em> I heard that you compare man to a carriage pulled by horses. Can you explain this concept to me?<\/em><\/p>\n